- <silence>
- Hi, I am Tom Sheridan
of Sheridan training.
Anyone who's been involved in
successful change management
will tell you that their success
depends on a great story,
and that story has to be
crystal clear on the who, what,
when, where, and why.
That story has to be easily repeatable,
and that story needs to
tap into the emotions
of those affected by or
who are driving the change.
I have an idea why not
use regular video updates
to report on progress
and share people's stories
as they experience the change
in progress and success.
You can use your phone or camera
and post the stories for the company,
but if you really wanna up your game
and shoot like a pro, listen
to this advice from Steve De
Group six time Emmy winning
owner of Dutch Productions.
Steve's gonna talk you
through his thought process
for capturing the emotions
and sizzle for your stories,
and that will keep people motivated.
So Steve, thanks for joining us today.
I really appreciate you
giving us your time.
- Happy to be here. Thank you, Tom. So,
- Steve, this is not the first
time we've had a conversation
about, uh, visual storytelling.
And, and one of the terms that you,
you mentioned in our conversations
in the past is story arc.
So I think I understand story arc,
but what do you mean by story arc?
- Well, uh, story arc is a,
is a phrase that's, uh, been
around for a long time,
and it applies to the ways
that you write stories,
write movies, screenplays,
and do the same thing in the visual arts.
Uh, whether you're cutting
a spot, uh, or a feature
or a documentary, long form,
short form, it doesn't matter.
You, you're, you need to
take people on a journey.
And, um, so it's important that you are,
you set up a dilemma or the cliffhanger
and dangle a carrot at the top,
and then tell people
the story that leads up
to a climactic moment
and then a resolution.
So everything that we try
to do when we're trying
to tell a story, uh,
has that pronounced arc.
And, and the viewer understands
right from the beginning
that they are on that journey, that,
and following that story,
and they're gonna, that
is what driving them
to continue to watch.
And that's so important.
- How do you bring a story to life?
Can you just tell me, uh,
a day in the life, uh, of,
of a production and, and how
you get started and, and,
and where you start from and
how you create that roadmap?
- Well, I, I think it depends
on the type of project
that you're working on.
But if you're working with a client,
the most important thing that
we can do at the start is
to listen and listen to what
the messages that they want
to relay, uh, the themes
that they want to hit on, um,
and, and listen to the words
that they use in describing
what they are doing.
Whether they're selling a
product, selling a service,
highlighting an event, whatever that is,
completely immerse yourself
from their point of view so
that you're not coming
back to them with creative
that doesn't make sense
to where they're going.
From there. If we're telling
a story, we need to figure out
who we're going to help
us tell that story,
and who are the people
that have the authority
to tell the story in the correct way.
And so, if we're gonna do
a series of interviews, uh,
for a longer form piece, we,
we, we write up that list
of people, we reach out to
those people or their people
and, uh, put together
an interview schedule
and a shoot schedule where we
can execute those interviews,
uh, all the while analyzing
the kinds of support materials
that we'll need to help tell that story,
whether it's archival footage
or new shooting of new scenic
shots, establishing shots, um,
shots of technology, any,
anything that applies
to the stories, will there
be animations that are needed
where there'll be recreations
that we need to shoot?
So there's a lot of things
that might go into play in,
in telling that story,
but it's, it's most important
to, from the start, to listen
to the client and,
and then organize around
that as you lay out
how story's gonna be told in their words,
but with your creativity.
- So if I'm kicking
off a campaign, what's,
how do I start that story?
What's the first thing
I, I've gotta start with?
'cause I would assume you'd have to get
their attention right away.
- Well, not only would you want
to get their attention right, right away,
but you also want to have
a sense of reassurance,
I would think, to that audience.
That there's a place for everyone
in our new plan to move ahead.
And, and then I think enticing
them with that new direction,
that new technology, technology,
the opportunity to learn
and grow, uh, all those
things would have to be teased
because you're about to hear,
I would assume more about it in the,
in the overall presentation.
I mean, those pieces are
tend to be very short.
They're like a minute,
a minute and a half.
And by the time of that
close of those 90 seconds,
everyone in the audience
should be really pumped
that they're there and part of this
company as they move forward.
- How do you bring the story to life?
Because I noticed in a
lot of your pieces, uh,
there are narratives
by the people involved.
- Well, we specialize in
non-scripted series generally.
So we use that in everything that we do,
whether we're doing a short form piece
or a, uh, even a spot.
Although spots are generally scripted.
We focus on human stories
that people tell in the
first person ideally.
And we try to connect people, products,
and services through those
human stories, whether it's,
um, in the medical field
and they're touting a, a
new drug with new benefits,
or it's just a, a story about a nonprofit
that has changed their lives.
So we try to get in front of
people who have been impacted
by these products and these
services and these nonprofits,
and have them tell their heartfelt,
often moving emotional
stories in the first person.
Let them think as they're
talking on camera, that it's just
me and them talking to each other,
and we're, we're talking
to each other in a very personal way.
We kind of forget that there's
camera and lights all around.
And I try to ask as, as an interviewer
questions in a very simplified way.
And interviewers often make the mistake of
asking long questions
and even sometimes trying to
impress the interviewee with
how much they know about a topic.
And that's exactly what
you don't wanna do,
because then the interviewee
doesn't feel the need to spill
that back to you.
And as an interviewer,
you're trying to get people
to tell the complete
story, the whole story,
fill in the blanks, and
eventually immerse themselves in
that moment again, that they
retell with emotion, heartfelt.
You can hear it in their
voice, you see it in their eyes
sometimes, obviously truly just crying
or laughing on camera and,
and showing those emotions.
And, and that's when you really know
you have gold on camera.
- How should I prep
them for that interview?
I mean, clearly they need
to know why I am coming
and pointing a camera in their direction.
Right? What, how do you
prep for those talks? Y
- Yeah, I, I mean, I like
to certainly give people
that I'm going to interview an overview of
what we're talking about so
that they're in the right head space.
But I don't want to give too much away.
I don't want to a, I don't want
to send them questions beforehand.
I have rarely found that has worked.
And often I've had clients
that I work with, so they're,
they're the ones who are
gathering the people I'll be
interviewing, and I will
submit questions to my client,
but I will ask them not
to send the questions
to the interviewee.
And sometimes they don't listen to me.
So I'll get in with the interview
and I'll start going
through the questions.
And the questions are just a guide,
because you don't wanna
be tied to your questions,
and you want to be constantly looking
at the person you're interviewing
rather than your notes.
You wanna make sure that they
see your eyes glued to them.
And when I interview someone
who's already seen the
questions, they tend to
wanna recite their answers,
and they're more, their
mind is more focused on,
what did I write rather
than, what should I say?
So at times, I have
thrown them a curve ball
by throwing out my questions
and try to just ask other
questions off of what they say.
And it tends to get them to
be a little bit more relaxed
and then answer the questions from their
heart once in a while.
If I, if there's an important question
that I have written out beforehand
and I know their answer,
or I, I know that they prepared
an answer, I will just say,
well, go ahead, pick
up your piece of paper
and read me your answer.
And if they do it smoothly
enough, I'll use that anyway.
It's still their words, but
I'll of course, we'll have
to cover the whole section with B roll
or other shots, obviously.
So it's just a smarter move,
not to share your questions,
but I, I do prep them in terms
of telling them, you know,
I'm going to ask you about
these difficult moments
or this, that great moment
that you experienced,
and so that they know that
that's where we're going.
And that's the whole point of the story.
They're not, I don't wanna surprise people
where I might come off as
being disingenuous and,
and manipulative with their life
- Suppose or just having a bad day.
Uh, and, and they're trying
to engineer the answers,
uh, a little too much.
How do you get them to rethink it?
Or how do you, do you take a break?
Do you tell 'em to take a breath?
And, and, and there's risk
there involved too, right?
Because all of a sudden
they may think, oh,
it doesn't like what I'm doing.
- Well, sometimes you, you
meet people that aren't used
to telling stories, but in
our business, we're editing.
So in the edit room, you can,
you can move the order
in which they say things
and it enhances the story.
So I might, it's not unusual
for me to find something
that someone said at the
end of their interview
that is actually the perfect setup
to start their story.
So as long as we know that we
have that freedom and power,
and we stick to the
integrity of the story,
we're not manipulating their
words to say something.
They're not saying we can
present their story in a more
effective way than maybe they did live.
That's the beauty of what
we're doing right now,
where you're gonna edit
me to make me sound good.
I am always working to edit, uh, my pieces
where my people will
sound the most concise,
the most creative, the most emotional,
and the most attention grabbing, so
that when I hear a line
at the front of the piece
that actually sets up the
whole story, then I know
that I'm more effectively
telling that story.
And that's really what our
job is in post-production.
- So that leads me
to another question about
the different phases
of storytelling, which is
pre-production, uh, production
and post-production.
But what are some of the,
the checklist mentally or,
or literally you use with your company
or with yourself in pre-production?
- Well, in, in pre-production,
once I've already,
I understand the project at
hand, I'll write out an outline
of what, what my piece is gonna be about
and how I would plan to tell it.
Then I write up my interview
list, who do I plan
to interview, and what are
the shots we need to get,
otherwise, the B roll shots, um,
- Can you just talk about
B roll shots a little bit?
I don't know what that means. Sure.
- Well, B roll shots
are if the a, if the A
roll is the interview,
the b roll shots are the
shots that compliment
what those people say.
As you're listening to them
continuing to speak, we're going
to a second shot to support
what they're talking about.
So it might be, if they're
talking about, um, a summer camp,
you'll see kids playing
at the summer camp,
or specifically if they're
talking about the swim program,
we're gonna show shots
of kids swimming at their summer camp.
So I need to make sure that
we're planning to shoot
those kids swimming and having fun,
and we're getting plenty of smiles or,
or good looking swimmers.
I, and when I say good looking,
I mean effective swimmers
looking like they're
benefiting from this swim
program at the camp.
So those are b-roll shots
that we need to get.
And I'll have a list of
shots that we need to cover.
So we're, we're covering
a, a new drug release.
We might get shots of, of
chemists, uh, looking at charts
or x-rays or what have you
that help tell that story.
And, um, we need to make
sure that we can get them,
whether we're filming them
or whether we're securing them
through stock footage houses,
those are shots that we need to get
and all are all options,
depending on what our budgets are
and what our story is.
- It seems like a lot of planning. It
- Is a lot of planning, but
the more planning you do,
the more time you save in
at, in the actual production,
and it's critical that you have a plan
and you specifically move
forward to execute that plan.
You have to be adaptable to
things that happen that are
unforeseen and you don't fall apart.
Uh, when it starts to rain
or when someone doesn't
show up or what have you.
You always need to have a plan B.
- So you've got a list of every shot and,
and the things you need to think about
and a plan B just in case
things don't go right,
- Yes, you have a shot list
of things that you need
to shoot, and if you can't
get a certain shot, then you
know, you'll ha if you're an
experienced producer director,
you'll know you can get them
at some other in some other
way, or it's on some other day,
- Right?
Because if without the list,
if you go into post-production
and realize you didn't have a shot,
you've got trouble on your hands, right?
- It's, it's too late in many ways.
And then you're, then you're
making changes against, uh,
you know, really what
the desire the client is
and what you want to do.
And that's shame on you.
You know, you need to, you need
to have a written out list.
You literally check
them off as you do them.
- So if I'm a novice, what,
what's your advice for,
for someone who has to think that through?
Are there any templates that I can use?
- You shoot things in the order that
is convenient to shooting them?
Not in the order of the piece, of course.
So going back to the summer camp,
if the swimming is in the morning,
you're getting all your swimming shots,
and you need to make sure
that you check them off
as they happen because
arts and crafts is a two,
and you're gonna be over
there filming arts and crafts,
and you have specific shots that you need.
Now you want to be efficient
in the way that you shoot,
and you want to shoot more
than you're gonna use.
But it's important to know
as you're looking at
the monitor of what your
camera person is shooting,
or if you're shooting it
yourself, you should, uh,
develop the skill to
know that here's a shot
and the action takes place.
And you know, I've got
it. I have that shot.
So you can check it off.
And sometimes it just takes a few minutes.
If you need a single
person swimming in the pool
and you've got that shot, there's no need
to spend another half hour trying
to get more swimming shots.
When you only need one,
you need to make sure
that you only need one.
It's, it's, it's important
to shoot more than the one,
but you don't want to shoot
for an hour when you only need one shot.
If you've got it, you can, you
need to be confident enough
to say, okay, now I'm gonna
move on to the next thing.
- So before you do any production at all,
capture any shots in the field,
you really need to revisit
that story arc that you created,
or the story you intend to tell,
or the, the, the pull
through for the story
before you go out and get those shots.
Or you need to keep that in
mind as you're shooting, right?
- Yes. The story arc is gonna
be developed mostly from
the words in your script
and the interviews, words,
interviewees words, the,
the B roll shooting,
the supporting materials are
just helping to reinforce
what those words are.
And there might be a way
that you shoot things to add
to the drama or the reveal
that you can think about
creatively out there in the
way that you shoot things.
But, um, most of the, the hooks
of your story are from
the words in the end.
Writing is everything,
the words that you use.
And when you're using
someone else's words,
you're in the edit room,
you have an opportunity
to basically write the
story with their words.
And that remains the most incredible
responsibility and,
and beautiful, uh, creative tool
that we have always had to you,
- You do it well, it, it pulls
through all of your pieces.
I mean, you're a master at it.
And, and then you just
mentioned the, the B-roll shots.
I, you know, I hadn't
even thought about that.
I was so focused on, well,
interviewing the person
and getting them to,
you know, say the things
that support the story you want to tell,
but the, the, the, the
B-roll shots, the footage
of the kids jumping into the,
into the lake, you know, off
of the board in the morning
through the sunshine,
while the person is telling the story.
So you cut from them to that B-roll.
God, that is so important,
- Right?
And the example that you just laid out
with kids jumping into
the lake, uh, people tend,
when they're filming
themselves, they tend to think
that they really need to do,
I'm the camera person, I need to do a lot.
And the truth is, is that
sometimes a locked off shot
where you see the sun
and you see the trees,
and you see the backs of
the kids as they're about
to jump in, that's the whole shot.
So the camera person doesn't
feel like they have to go move,
you know, you're not
capturing them jumping off,
you're capturing the wide shot.
And so I'm a big fan of just
the locked off shot from behind
in that situation, or a slight creep left
to right, or right to left.
But you're, you're
capturing the whole beauty.
I'm, I'm a fan of subtle movements.
I don't want a camera guy
that is then gonna film
people moving around.
If you're, if you're covering
a basketball game, yeah,
once in a while to see
the sh the ball go up
and you're following the ball
into the net, okay, fine.
But in the, in the scope
of a, a more thoughtful
sequence of words, you
want to shoot things
as an observer in a
creative, artistic way.
So be, why don't be afraid to be wide,
and so that you see the scene, and, and so
therefore, the, the job of the shooter is
to just capture the scene,
not necessarily every nuance
of, of what is going on in that scene.
- And that just sucks you in.
I mean, I, I've watched your pieces
and you sometimes start that
way, um, with some narration,
and it pulls me right in,
because of course, you're
inside of the action
or whatever the emotion of
that moment is right away.
Can you talk to me about those shots?
You talked about the wide shot and,
and what are those different shots called?
So if I'm gonna go out
and shoot a piece, yes.
I've got the interview shot,
and I want to talk about
the one shot or the two shot
or whatever, whatever you use
when you interview people.
But can you talk to me about,
uh, the different shots,
an establishing shot or a transition
or cutaway, whatever it
is that you, that you do.
I know a little bit about it
just 'cause I'm a fan of it.
Um, but can you talk to
me as a pro about some
of the shots you try to
capture, just like you, you did
with the wide shot and,
and what, and what you're looking to do.
- You are heading on
a, a lot of the terms.
I mean, um, it's important
to always have a wide
establishing shot of every scene.
It's usually the first
thing I try to shoot.
And, uh, whether that is a wide shot of
the scene where the people are,
or the where the, the scene
I'm about to shoot is,
or whether even an exterior
shot of a building in which
this takes place can suffice.
We just need to give people a perspective.
And it's often a pause in the story
or a transition in the story
where we we're leaving one
aspect and we're, we're
moving to a new location,
and there should be a couple
of beats, maybe a music change,
and we see an establishing
shot that tells the viewer, oh,
we're, we're going on to another chapter.
Uh, or there's a slight tweak in the story
that's about to happen.
From there, you go
and try to, in the most creative way,
cover whatever you're filming.
And often, uh, it's not unusual
to shoot people at their office
for corporate videos at work.
So have them engage in actions
that they normally do at their desks
or in the conference room,
or in presenting to others.
So if you were to film a,
a scene in a conference
room at a presentation,
you may not be listening
to what they're saying,
but you want to establish
that this person is a leader,
and he, and she's talking
to people at the table.
And, and so you'll shoot,
uh, maybe a wide shot
of the exterior of the building,
then you'll shoot a wide
shot of the conference room,
then you'll shoot a tight
shot of her speaking,
you'll make sure you'll shoot tight shots
of people listening to her at the table.
And from there, you're kind
of, you're covering everything
that you need to from
what you're trying to tell
and what she's trying to tell.
Now, I often like to record people
and what they're saying, so
we have a little, little audio
underneath, whether we're using
that audio up full or not.
It's always important to have that audio.
Sometimes we shoot in
what we call high speed,
which is actually slow-mo.
Uh, it's a way to heighten the dramatics
of a certain shot.
The texture of the footage
enhances that as well.
The drama of the moment,
when you do that, you often
sacrifice being able to record with audio.
Of course, if you're
playing it back in slowmo,
you're not gonna use the audio.
But, uh, those are all
things that you need
to consider when you're shooting.
And how can we film this?
I want to get a little audio underneath.
Okay, we're gonna shoot in 60 frames.
We'll have the option to slow it down
and have it still look
great and recorded audio,
or if we need to slow it down further,
maybe we won't have
that option with audio.
Those are all things that come into play.
But at that point, I've covered that
conference room scene in, in every way
that I can possibly do.
You might want to shoot the
person speaking at the front
of the room, and you're, you
move the camera slowly from
behind people who are, whose
backs are to the camera,
and they're listening to the person.
So those are all creative ways
that you can shoot a certain
scene as simple as a conference room.
And anybody could do that,
whether you're doing it
with a professional crew
or whether you're, uh,
filming it with your iPhone.
Those are all shots that you can get.
There's the, there's
the larger productions
where you're using higher end cameras,
and then there are other productions
where we're using nothing
more than an iPhone.
So, um, you use an iPhone, well,
I generally try not to,
but there are plenty of people who do.
And the the images are remarkable.
Often people use iPhones
as a supplement to
what they're shooting out.
With more professional grade cameras,
if you set your camera video specs to 4K,
you can still deliver material
that plays best on a screen
by using those extra pixel dimensions
to fit within your vertical display.
Uh, when you shoot it this way,
you can only, you're limited
to being able to shoot it
or play it back in that vertical format.
And it's not quite as
versatile as I'd like.
So it's important that if you
use your, if you're filming
with an iPhone, I think it's
important to set things to 4K
to shoot horizontally,
to, to bring a tripod
and a gimbal so that you
can get smooth moves.
A gimbal is a way to move the camera wet
around in a more smooth
manner than just your hands.
And two, properly light,
even with a basic light,
would be a good idea.
And most importantly, when
using an iPhone, the biggest
fallback is audio.
People forget how important audio is.
So go on Amazon
and pick up, uh, a $40, um,
mic kit, la lavalier mic kit,
and that plugs into your iPhone,
and you will get so much better
audio than you do from the
microphone that's on the phone itself.
And you'll see that in
the lower end productions.
The most noticeable
difference is the audio,
not the video. It,
- It absolutely is.
And they're so cheap and accessible.
And I used one,
and you helped me with, uh, with, with
how I should be using my iPhone
when I shot the video for,
uh, the piece on my website.
And, uh, and it made all
the difference in the world.
And just, just using the,
the right, a lavalier
that plugs into the bottom
of my iPhone just made all
the difference in the world.
Mm-Hmm,
- .
- So, for all the things
that you just talked about,
which were wonderful, and,
and I think you can see
many of the examples of
what you're talking about.
Well, first of all, on
your website, right?
Dutch productions, you can go there
and check some of those things
out that Steve's talking about here.
But, you know, if you
watch a TV commercial,
you watch a movie and you
watch them pan to something,
you know, and then go into a tight shot,
you can replicate those.
But again, I just want to take
it back to the very beginning
of when you're planning those shots
for the very things that you just said.
So what kind of shots might you want
to capture in the context of the story?
What equipment am I going to need?
How early do I need to get there?
How should I test those things?
Should I bring extra batteries?
So you really do need to,
to think all the little
details through, right?
Because then you can focus
on the, the storytelling,
the visual art or visual
storytelling, uh, as opposed to,
oh my gosh, I don't know if
we're gonna have enough, uh,
a battery to, to do the entire shoot.
- When you're a one man band
and you're doing everything,
you'll be reminded as to
how difficult each
aspects of these jobs are
to do really well at the highest level.
And it's a tall order to
be the guy who's in charge
of making sure the batteries are charged
and also telling the story
in the most effective way.
I mean, uh, it's a, if it,
it's a difficult challenge.
The more you do it, the
better you'll be at it,
and you'll get into a routine.
But generally with us, we're hiring crews,
or we have access to crews
that are used to their routine
and the, and the demands of their job.
And they have worked on
it every day for years
to the point where
everything is automated.
They have their cameras set
up where with a flick, a flick
of a couple buttons.
They're changing modes in the way
that they're shooting a scene.
And we've talked about how we want to cha
how we wanna shoot certain things
so they can adjust
quickly out in the field.
And we're not spending time
flicking through buttons.
- Now, suppose I am
lucky enough to be able
to hire a production company
like a Dutch Productions.
What do you need from them?
Or what should I be asking
a production company or,
or talking to them about if I
have the ability to hire one?
- Well, I think the, the first thing
that you wanna do when you're searching
for a production company
is to find one that
has done pieces similar to
what you're looking to do.
Mm-Hmm, , that's the most important thing.
So you can see their
sensitivity to the details
that are important to you.
From there, you, you may
want to get an idea of
where they are cost-wise
and what they're, what
realm they're usually,
what world they, they live in.
Um, because there's a
great variety in terms of
what each company brings to the table,
whether they have on staff shooters
or not, uh, graphic designers or not,
and the kinds of costs that,
that usually represents.
And for the companies that have
been around a while, I mean,
it's not unusual for production
companies to, to bring in
specialties or special talents according
to the project that's at hand.
So a big company that has a lot
of people on staff is not
necessarily the best company
for your production,
because they're gonna want
to use the people that are on staff.
The graphic designers may
not be the perfect look
for your product or your service.
The level of shooters may
not be the same as that you,
that you need as the ones
that are on staff at a production company.
So often a production company,
a smaller production company,
that, that is more flexible
and versatile, who can hire the
specialists that are perfect
for your project, might be
the best option for you.
But you need to make sure
that the person who's driving the story
or the production is
experienced in telling
your types of stories.
- Yeah. So talk to me
a little bit about, uh,
the exciting shoots that you've done
- Through the years.
I've had the good fortune to interview
and communicate with, uh, a
really a crazy cross section of
celebrities and sports figures.
I mean, our business has
generally been sports
related from the beginning.
So I've had the opportunity
to interview, you know,
Arnold Palmer and, uh,
Joe Frazier, and I mean,
and then, and then in another
world, uh, John Oliver and,
and, uh, Chris Rock
and, uh, Jerry Seinfeld.
It's been a remarkable
journey in that regard,
and it's just sort of the, the benefits
of working in this
business for so long and,
and for such high profile
properties like Madison Square Garden.
And, um, when you say
ESPN, you're doing a show
for ESPN usually opens up a lot of doors,
or HBO it, it, it gets people know, uh,
to notice you and
intrigued to participate.
To me, those are some
of the, certainly some
of the more exciting names
that I've, I've been around.
And, um, I mean, I think
I'm not unlike a lot
of people who've worked in
this business for a while,
that they, once in a while, they,
these opportunities crop up.
- Who's the most fun to talk to and why?
You can name a couple, you
don't have to pick one.
- One of the neater things
that I got to do was a bunch
of years ago when I
interviewed Red Auerbach.
- Oh. And,
- Um, what was really
great about him was how
down to earth he really was.
And during the course of
the, in the interview,
we talked about things like
the sacrifice that he made
as a longtime coach with
the Boston Celtics to, uh,
what the cost was for his family.
And he got more emotional about it than I
ever would've imagined.
And at the end, he asked
me when we were done,
he asked me if I could send him
the piece when it was done, which I did.
And then I got a handwritten
note back on Boston Celtics
stationary thanking me for it,
which I now have framed in my house.
So it was that kind of
personal, uh, touch that,
that made him so great.
And probably, I mean, he's
only doing that for me, who I,
he met once, but imagine the
allegiance he drew from his
players by the type of person that he was,
and the type of leader that he was
that forever indoctrinated
them to great allegiance to him
and to put out their best effort for him
night in and night out.
- No, that's why the guy has a statue in
Fani Hall on a bench .
Exactly. You sit right
next to him a cigar.
That's just amazing.
Uh, anybody else that
sort of blew you away?
Anybody who you talk to that
sort of took you off your game
because you were just so
overwhelmed speaking to them?
Well, I think, I mean,
red Beck's gotta be at the
top of the list, but who else?
- Yeah, I mean, um, I had a
project where I was going down
to interview Arnold Palmer,
and, um, I was very fortunate
to get this interview.
- Where may I ask?
- What's that?
- Where did you do the
interview? May I ask?
- I did it down at his
golf club in Florida. Okay.
- Yeah.
- So you kind of set these things up
and you think, okay, you
know, this is gonna be fun.
And then the moment that he actually just,
he walks into the room
and you go, oh, damn, it's
actually Arnold Palmer,
he's gonna sit down and talk to me.
Uh, is, it takes your breath away
and you gotta have to, you have to kind
of get your act together and,
and be the professional that you are,
and get him to talk to you
and give you the answers that you need.
So he was great, and
his people were great,
and, um, you know, God bless him.
- Wow, it sounds amazing. But
that's what you get for great work.
Right? And
so let's just talk about
post-production a little bit, uh,
and, and how you know what
to keep and what to toss.
- When you're, you're
sitting in the edit room
and you've looked at all your material
and you realize what your best
shots are, you almost want
to take those best shots and
make sure they're in the piece.
It's a priority to get the
best shots in the piece.
So sometimes you put a shot
in because you have to,
because the person is
talking about something,
but you kind of lament, oh,
this is not the best shot that I have.
But when you have a great
shot that shows an emotion,
I mean, you, you, in time
you develop a, a sense of
what is a great shot.
It's one of the most
important skills you learn,
and it takes a lot of work
sometimes to really understand
what is a great shot.
But once you have them, once you see them
and you know you need to
get them into the piece,
you get 'em in one, one way
or another, you, you'll build the piece
around a shot if you have to.
I tell young people that if, if,
if you're doing a short 32nd spot
or a 32nd story, I take
the best shot I have,
I might start the piece
with the best shot I have,
if it makes sense, and
the second best shot I use
and leave at the end so that
I leave on a strong note,
and then I'll fill in around the rest.
But when you see a shot
that really makes sense,
that captures everything
that you want, you, you need
to figure out a way to get it in.
And, and generally, if
it's really that great
and that captivating, you'll
start the piece with it.
- And one of the things
I noticed that you do in,
in your work is, um, you'll
have somebody who's who,
maybe they'll, right,
they'll give you just the line you want,
but then you use silence
to your advantage as well,
because you let that line lie there
and resonate a little bit.
And you might cut to an,
to that person physically
or emotionally, uh, or, or
physically showing emotion.
Maybe they'll look down or
they'll take a breath or they,
and that's really powerful.
- Well, I think all the,
certainly the documentarians understand
the power of a pause.
And, uh, I think anybody
who does longer form pieces
that can afford the time,
and yes, that's a, that's a sort of, um,
a process of timing.
And you might lay out a piece and a story,
and the first time you lay
it out, you're just sort
of just executing
and putting things in the right order
that you think it makes sense.
But then when you're putting
the final touches on things
and you're putting in the music
and everything else, you
realize the importance
of the pauses and the
importance of the shots.
If there's an emotional shot, just,
just let it put it in
there and let it sing.
Let it sit
and let the viewer resonate
with it so that it hits home.
And sometimes if you're emotional
and you're watching it,
you won't get emotional
until you see that shot.
You might have just heard the words,
but you need that second
or two to think about it.
And, um, that's critically important
for the effectiveness of any piece.
- Three things I wanna talk about,
and you, you spoke to music,
and we will get to that in a bit.
Um, and I wanna talk about
how you think about the ending
and the importance of, of
what you include in that,
that final shot or final statement
or final crescendo with the music.
Who do you use when you
wanna have someone look at your work?
Or do you just decide that's
it, I know I'm the master,
I've, I've done it and I've
got it, I've got what I want?
- Well, at this point, I'm pretty trusting
of my own judgment about things.
And if I'm the one who's
been the main contact
with the client and I have a
confidence in my own assessment
of what they want, I
put a certain value on
therefore my opinion.
But I'm always up for other opinions.
And I would play it for almo.
I would play a piece for almost anyone.
And it doesn't need to
be someone in the field.
I mean, there's certainly
some other, the other people
who work here who are used to production,
who might have a certain idea.
And then, uh, I'll play
it a piece for my wife or,
or one of my kids who aren't
necessarily involved in the nitty gritty.
And I'll get a completely
different take on what they see.
And their opinion is
just as valid, of course,
because, uh,
I can understand from their
viewpoint they may have a better
angle, I might be too close to something
to see what they see.
So, uh, I'm receptive
to everyone's opinion.
And then of course, the most
important opinion is the
client's opinion when they see
it
- .
Yeah. So I wanted to ask you about that.
Best to wait till the end,
or do you show the client
the piece as it's evolving?
- Well, I think it's, you have to, you get
to know your clients a little bit and,
and some, you'll learn that
you can show, uh, rough cuts
or really rough cuts to certain clients,
but other clients who you don't
know, I would tend to wait
until things are buttoned up a lot more.
- Yeah.
- As long as you understand
that you're on the right
path, uh, understand
through the process that
there are gonna be things
that are gonna be hard to change.
And I may need to clue
in my client about this
particular direction.
But as time
and technology has emerged,
a adaptations late changes aren't,
what aren't the problems they
used to be in the old days?
Yeah. I mean, the most common thing is,
ah, I don't like the music.
And sometimes it's a problem
if you've got a whole segment
segment that's been cut to the music.
But generally, if that, if
that's the way I'm going
to proceed on a project, I
will ask the client if this is,
if this piece of music fits
where they want to go, um,
are these, are these the
lyrics we want to use?
Um, are you all on board with that?
And if they are, then I feel
confident enough to move forward.
- Any particular music that you like to,
to start or finish with?
Is it rock, is it classical?
Um, what do you like to use?
- It depends wildly on the, the piece.
And, um, it's a good idea to not get too
attached to one genre or another
because every client
wants a different feel
and every story demands a different sound.
So, uh, I, I'm always, I always try
to be open minded about it.
Um, and generally
the music we use, uh,
and the clients that we
have, have the budgets
for stock music and not
necessarily copy written music.
Mm-Hmm. . So we have our stock music
libraries that we use.
Um, I'm a big fan of
associated production music
because their library is huge
and their search capabilities online are
really simple to use.
But a lot of these companies,
extreme music, there's a lot
of companies around that, um,
have all these now online
libraries that are just great
to use and you can quickly
find cuts that work for you.
- It's not expensive either,
and it's worth a subscription,
but it's worth noting as well.
You can't just grab an artist's song
and use it without permission or payment.
So just a thing there,
Hey, let's get to the end.
What should resonate
at the end of the piece
and how do you make sure that it does
- Well at the end of your piece,
you've taken people on a short journey.
And I wanna, I want
every, everyone to feel it
in their heart and in their throat.
So if we're telling an
emotional story, we,
I almost want the piece to end
and there's silence in the
room, and that may be applause.
Yeah. Like I, that, that
is the ideal scenario.
One of the proudest
projects that I work on
is the Gardner Dreams Talent Show,
which is a show at Radio City Music Hall
that happens every April and May or May.
And it's a show that
features kids who have gone
through a certain hardship in life,
and Madison Square Garden
and the Garden of Dreams
Foundation is affording them the
opportunity to perform
on stage at Radio City.
And these kids, they go
through an audition process,
so they have a certain
level of talent and ability,
and some of them are a special talent
and some of them have
just a special heart.
So our job, our production
company, we, we do
what you see on American
Idol and the Voice
and America's Got Talent.
We produce all the vignettes
that tell their backstory so
that people, the viewing people
that we stream the event as well.
So the viewing audience
and the people in the audience
at Radio City have an idea of
what this kit has gone through,
and they're all invested by
the time they are performing.
And the energy in the
room is just amazing.
And it's through tho the
power of those pieces
and the guts
and heart of those
performers that transforms
that audience and that, and,
and the musical into just
a remarkable place of love.
So that after the vignette plays the,
the most effective vignettes
there is that pause of, wow,
that kid has been through a lot,
and then the kid is
introduced and on stage,
and then there's this raucous support.
- Oh my God. Yeah. And
- It's, um, it is truly
- So emotional.
- It's a truly amazing event,
and we take great pride in
participating in doing our part for that.
But it's, it's those tellings
of those human stories that
we enjoy telling and have proven to be
so effective in telling that story and,
and really, um, perpetuating the efforts
and the outstanding work of
the Gardner Dreams Foundation,
- Man, that that is when you
know it's all worth it, right?
When all the hard work
and all the artistry
comes together for something like that.
Yes. Holy man. It pays
- Off from the heart in a way that I,
I couldn't imagine this career
doing, uh, so many years ago.
But this is, these are
the kinds of projects that
we're pursuing now that we,
we want to tell human stories
that connect to products
and services and nonprofits
and, uh, that has manifested
itself in many ways
through the Garner Dreams
Foundation or Make A Wish,
or United Negro College Fund
or, uh, Monmouth and Pace
Universities, the new school.
We've done stories, uh, for
all those entities and, um,
and we're proud of them.
- And I know you can
see some of those, uh,
pieces on Dutch productions
on your website.
- Yes. Thank you.
- What do you do
with all the footage you have?
You can probably reuse it. Yes.
- Yeah. Well, on my first year
of reporting on my first job
and in the business, I had to
go down to a certain closet
and throw out all the two inch tapes
that were clogging the closet up.
'cause they needed room for
some coats or something.
It was a coat closet. And
I shudder to think about
what those reels contained.
We realized now that
those were all gold mines.
And now through technology we tend,
we have the ability to
save entire shoots. The
- But just in like Dropbox or online or,
- Yeah.
Well, the chore, the
chore is to how do we,
how do we take advantage
of the work that we've done
with those shoots and
use them in the future,
or have access to it in the future?
So generally, when you get a
shoot in the material is logged
and you use it in producing
and cutting a new piece from those logs,
it might be done in
Avid or in Premier and,
and you have those notes.
We store everything that
we shoot on a server,
and then that is backed
up on digital tape so
that we always have a record of everything
that we've ever shot.
And the notes done 10 years
ago on a cl medium closeup
of Patrick Ewing on the court.
If I needed to, I could
find again and pull up
and use, not worrying
about the rights for now,
but that, that kind of
accessibility is, is a available.
And what we offer our
clients is the ability
to store all their assets
online, give them access
to their own personal library online,
where they can see the, all the shots
that we've ever gathered for them,
and they can use download,
hire other editors that can
work with that same access
to our server and put together pieces.
That's especially valuable today when
we do say a project for
Monmouth University,
and we'll cut a commercial for them,
and we have all this material
on the cutting room floor
or even longer versions of shots
that we've used in the spot.
- Yeah.
- Uh, the raw material
and their social media
team could have access to
that entire shot and,
and take advantage of the work
that we've already done with that shoot.
- Because they own it, right?
- They own it. It's their material
so they can just reuse it.
I saw how many times people
- Leave stuff behind and
- Oh, yeah.
It, it offers them so much flexibility,
cost efficiency, the cost of
the shoot that they paid for
will reap benefits for years to come
because they'll have
shots that they can use.
Certainly Camp Scenic shots
and what have you for
the rest of the time.
I mean, we've already had the
seismic change when we went
from standard def to high def video.
And that seems to be the
way we're gonna go for now.
I mean, now we're shooting
things in 4K and eight k
and beyond, but in the end,
we're still broadcasting in 16
by 9, 19 20 by 4 86 pixels.
So all these expanded dimensions
can be reformatted for that
and forever look young
and forever look new.
So unless the campus changes,
which occasionally it does,
those shots can live on.
And, um, and it, it can
be an invaluable resource
for any company or any entity.
Uh, any time they have a
shoot, they own that material,
they can reuse it.
And there's, there's different
applications that come up
after the fact that we
say, oh yeah, remember
that shot? Let's use that again.
- Well, it's nice to know you
offer the ability to do that
because I'm, I'm, even though
I'm putting stuff in Dropbox
or in the cloud, I'm not using the right
naming conventions. And
- The, the thing I'll say about Dropbox
and other, um, large folder uh,
storage devices that people
can share, they're all great,
but you don't have access to the metadata.
So when a shot is logged,
you're including information,
names, day, time, place, ways
that you can pull up the shot
and you can access that library
specifically by that shot
by name or that day or what have you.
You can then pull that one
single shot that you need
rather than a Dropbox where you say, wow,
I can't remember exactly
what shoot it was.
You start searching through, oh my gosh,
hours, hours and hours of footage.
That's where you're losing time and money.
So by using the assets that
Quantum has afforded us
through cat DV
and storage, DNA is, is what we use,
we can access shots on the
granular level of, uh, uh,
by searching for them via metadata
that will save hours.
- Yeah. That's being able to
find your stuff afterwards.
Because, you know, if you're a,
if you're a visual storyteller
and you're good at this, who
knows, the company may ask you
to do it again, and you may need
to use some of that same material.
Well, Steve Deru, president
of Dutch Productions
six time Emmy winner, I,
I see why you've got
those Emmys on your shelf
that I see in your house.
Uh, thanks for sharing your
insight on visual storytelling
from, from start to finish.
Steve, I really appreciate it.
And we're probably gonna come back to you
and ask more, uh, of you in the future.
So thanks again, Steve.
- Thank you, Tom. Pleasure
to be here. Thank you.