Starting now.
Commonalities where guests find
common ground through uncommon
conversations, politics,
religion, finances,
all the topics your grandmother told
you not to discuss with friends.
And now your host, Matthew Dowling,
and today's guests on commonalities.
Thank you for joining us once again
on commonalities. I'm Matt Dowling,
alongside, uh, a former colleague
of mine in the Pennsylvania House,
a good conservative, as they say,
representative Mike Jones. Mike,
thank you so much for being
with us today. Um, you know,
I wanna allow you a moment or two to, um,
get your credentials out
there, and as you do that, um,
I know you were very involved
with, uh, with business and,
uh, in the supply chain,
um, running a corporation,
and then you made a
transition to politics.
So why don't you give us a little
bit of your background and, uh,
and tell us who represented Mike Jones is.
Yeah, well thank you, Matt. I
really appreciate you having me.
Congratulations on the new show.
I'm honored to be one of your first
guests here. Um, yeah. So Mike Jones,
uh, in York County, uh, kind
of my district falls, uh,
just south of the city of York down
to the Mason Dixon line. So we, uh,
district borders Maryland. Um,
just finishing up my second term and, uh,
and was just elected to a
third, uh, two year term, uh,
in the state legislature. So, and
to your point, um, my prior to that,
um, I was really never involved in
politics in any significant way.
Um, been a lifelong Republican, of
course, and voted and and such, but, um,
was really busy, uh, running a great
company here in York called St.
Oranges Company. Um, was president
of that firm for about 11 years. Uh,
worked there for over 20, um, when I left,
that was about 120 person organization.
And, uh, one of the things,
in addition to being a great company
in and of itself, um, we consulted,
to your point on, uh, supply chain issues.
So we designed distribution
and manufacturing facilities
and help companies
figure out how many of those facilities
they should have and where they should
be located for many of the nations and
really the world's largest corporations.
Um, so I was really blessed
to travel the country. Uh,
did a decent amount of
international travel as well,
and really gained an appreciation, um,
for the greatness of American business
and the great, you know, the, uh,
the positive impact that it has,
not only in our country as far as creating
jobs and tax revenue and so forth,
but really, uh, around the world and
the quality of life, uh, that it,
that American corporations and
capitalism in general, uh, provide.
So I'm a staunch capitalist.
Uh, it's kinda like America. Uh,
America's not perfect, but
there's no close second,
and capitalism's not a
perfect system, but, uh,
it sure beats the heck
out of socialism. So, uh,
I've been honored now to transition to
politics and try to bring a little bit of
that business experience
and, uh, uh, to the table.
You know,
and I think we're in a timeframe where
people are looking for someone who knows
how to run a business. Uh, you know, I
I myself, a small business owner, uh,
before going into politics,
they want people that have
signed the front of a paycheck,
not just the back of a
paycheck. Um, and, you know,
I think you and I both agreed, uh,
while I was in the legislature
and serving with you, that, uh,
government needed to live
more within its means,
and that's something that we have
to make our businesses do. Um,
but we don't always
see government do that.
No, you're exactly
correct, and unfortunately,
that's one reason I've put it against
every budget since I've been in the
legislature. Um, and you know,
it's, you know, as you know,
there's a lot to like and dislike
in most any budget. But, um, the,
the, uh, the recurring thing
that I found to dislike, uh,
is the amount of spending. And, um,
I would love to see us get the
Taxpayer Protection Act passed,
which would limit spending, uh,
other than in emergency
situations where we could, uh, uh,
with the two-thirds majority, we
could override it. But, uh, that,
that, uh, if, if passed, it would be a
constitutional amendment that says, um,
as you know, that spending
could not exceed, um,
the combination of inflation and
population growth. Um, so yeah, I've,
I've been disappointed, uh, really on
both sides of the aisle. There's just a,
it seems to be a never ending appetite
to, to spend other people's money. Um,
and as a result, you know,
our, our state has is growing,
literally growing older, smaller,
and poorer by the day. And, uh,
the only demographic that's growing
is the over 85 demographic. Um,
we just lost another US con congressional
seat, as you know, and with it,
we lost another electoral vote.
Um, so it's a major problem.
We should be an economic powerhouse,
uh, and instead, um, you know,
with excessive tax and regulation and
spending, we're going the wrong direction.
Yeah. And so, uh, you know, Mike,
as, as you well know, and as, uh,
as our listeners have learned
within the last week or so,
that this show is about, um,
talking about opposing views, and,
uh, you know,
normally we would have a Democrat and
a Republican or an independent and a
Democrat or so forth. Um,
but we have kind of an interesting
case with you. And, uh,
after we get our first break in, I want
to talk a little bit more about this.
You were kind of an outsider
within the party, and, uh,
and, and, and I leaned
your way, uh, a good bit.
I I was in the top 10 most conservative,
top 10% of conservative members
of the house. I know you, uh,
you beat me by a, a couple
points there. Um, but you know,
you were an outsider within
your own party. And, uh,
I think that's something that we really
want to, uh, to discuss today. Uh,
because I think people at home
think that, uh, you know, within a,
a party that we hold hands
and sing kumbaya. And, uh,
as you know, and as you've experienced,
that's not necessarily what happens.
Uh, sometimes the, uh,
disagreements within a political
party can be just as severe,
if not more severe, uh,
than they are between, uh,
both sides of the aisle. So we do
have to get a quick break in, uh,
representative Jones. And then, uh,
we'll come back and we'll talk a little
bit about being an outsider within your
own party.
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Well,
thanks for sticking with us on
commonalities here on WBS five 90 am
1 0 1 0.1 FM in any place
you download your favorite
podcasts. I'm Matt Dowling alongside,
uh, my former colleague, uh,
representative Mike Jones
from your county, uh,
serving the South central
part of that county there.
And before we went to break, Mike, I
started to allude to the fact that, uh,
you were kind of an outsider within the
party. So why don't you explain to the,
the viewers and the listeners,
uh, what that means.
Yeah, so I kind of ran
on the premise. You were,
we were talking about my
business background a little
bit before the break, and,
um, so I ran on the premise
that I was, you know, um,
a business guy, um, who was not a
career politician and, you know,
did not sort of need the
job, so to speak. Um,
and I guess I, I guess I kind of took
that to heart <laugh>. But in any event,
um, what happened in
my case was it really,
Matt ties back to the
lockdowns and, um, you know,
and you and I, and, and most everyone in
our party agreed that the governor, uh,
really exploited his, um, I'll call
it executive privilege, uh, with the,
in his emergency powers and
in shutting down businesses.
And, um, and we saw schools
shut down and so forth.
And a couple of months into that,
it became apparent to guys like you and
myself, um, that there was really, um,
you know, these were just bureaucrats
making decisions, uh, with really no, uh,
medical or strategic, uh,
you know, uh, justification.
And that started a
process, uh, here in York.
We did something that I don't believe
anybody else did across the state.
I spearheaded something called
reopen York. And, um, we had a,
a legal fund, uh, that we, uh,
put pulled together from the
business community to defend, uh,
business owners against the state if they
would come after them. Um, we had ppe,
we had best practices, we had marketing
and messaging. We even had, uh,
psychologist available, uh,
to help these folks cuz what was being
done to their businesses was criminal.
And some folks might be familiar
with Round the Clock Diner.
That was the most prominent
business here in York. Uh,
got a lot of national attention, uh,
on Fox News and so forth. In any event,
I share that because, um, during
that process, and, you know,
and maybe we did or didn't
handle it perfectly,
but at least we did something and
we pushed back against tyranny.
And we ultimately had over 300 businesses.
I don't know if you're
aware of this or not, Matt,
but we had over 300 businesses that
defied the governor's orders and stayed
open. And not one of them went to jail.
Not one of them closed their doors.
Not one of them lost a license that he
was trying to weaponize against them.
And, um, and if they were smart,
none of 'em even paid a fine.
So the reason I share that
is we then went into, um,
vaccine mandates, uh, and
mass mandates on our students.
And we went from, you know, our
doctors and nurses in particular,
who we were hailing as, as frontline, as
frontline heroes, as we, you know, as,
as we were rightfully so,
we're now talking about
firing them because they
wouldn't get unproven vaccines
against their will. Now, you know,
vaccines are great if
that's what you chose to do,
but the notion of firing these people, um,
because they refused to take
an unproven vaccine, uh,
masking of children who were at
virtually no risk from the virus.
And then, uh, the third big
bucket was election reform. Uh,
and on the heels of the 2020 election,
we had a lot of people that were not only
angry, but scared and disenfranchised,
uh, you know,
as to whether their votes were
properly counted on that sort of thing.
So in the wake of all of that, I had a
couple of senior colleagues here in York,
and, um, they just didn't show
up to any of those things.
They voted the right way. Uh, but
for a year and a half, you know,
when we're out there on the front lines,
um, and people were scared and hurting,
and businesses being shut
down, people outta work, um, I,
I had a 62 year old
waitress I'll ever forget.
She had literally fell through her front
door with a panic attack because she
had not gotten a paycheck in eight
weeks. And nobody at department of, uh,
unemployment was picking up at
the Labor department. And so, um,
some of my colleagues were just nowhere
to be found on the front lines. And, uh,
and I had tried to warn them for
a year or two what was coming,
and they ended up getting, uh,
challenged in primaries. Um, and for me,
the straw that broke the
camel's back, um, little,
little tougher issue for you out there
in the western part of the state,
but was fully funding the
University of Pittsburgh,
who we found doing barbaric
experiments with fetal tissue,
taking the skin from four and five month
old aborted babies and sewing it onto
lab, lab mice. And, uh, my couple
of my guys here did nothing.
So I took kind of an
unprecedented step of endorsing
the challengers, both of whom ultimately
won in the primaries and will now be,
uh, seated in January when they're sworn
in, uh, Wendy Fink and Joe De Dorsey.
So, needless to say,
and I understand that the establishment
Republican party did not appreciate
that, and it's not something
I did lightly. And, um,
maybe someday I'll look back
and reflect on it differently,
but I did what I thought I had to do
at the time. And, um, so as a result,
I was stripped of three or four,
three of my four committees and, uh,
put up in the front row, moved my seat
on the house floor up to the front,
very front row, and, uh, sat me
next to the Democrats. Um, but,
you know, I'm a grown man. I can
take it. There are consequence.
But to your point, and I apologize for
a long answer here, Matt, but the, uh,
um, you made a great point
before the break, um,
a lot of times the tensions and, and, um,
and I think oftentimes productive, I
don't know that I'd even call it in.
I mean, it is a little bit of infighting,
but a lot of it's good
healthy debate as well.
But there's a lot of debate within
the party that people don't see
because it's generally not public.
We do a 95% of that occurs,
rightfully so,
behind closed doors and what we know
in what we call the caucus room. Um,
so you won't see Republicans debating
with Republicans very often, you know,
in television interviews
or even on the House four.
But that doesn't mean it
doesn't occur <laugh>.
And so I think that's something
people to your, to your point, again,
might be interested to know. Uh, there
is plenty of debate within the party,
um, but it just tends to be a
little more, um, behind the scenes.
To your point, uh, you know, 25 years
from now, God willing, I'm still, uh, uh,
living and around, I will never
forget hearing, uh, recessing,
the house has been extended
for 15 minutes. <laugh>. Um, I,
I think I hear that over and over.
And for the listeners at home
that don't know, you know,
when we are in the caucus room, the
Democrats are in their caucus room. Um,
you know, we may say that that, uh,
we're gonna caucus for an hour
or an hour and a half, uh,
and will return to the
floor to vote. But, uh,
our debate becomes rather
lengthy at times. And, uh,
there literally have been all afternoons
that have been extended 15 minutes at a
time <laugh>, um,
so that we can continue that debate before
returning to the floor to do the work
of the people. And, you know, I I,
I think that's actually, you know,
it's actually, as you said, healthy,
um, because we don't really want,
uh, just one view to be
recognized all the time. Um,
although many of us are, are pretty
staunch in what our beliefs are, um,
you do have the opportunity to
change minds in the caucus room and
to, uh, to think of things a
little differently. Um, you know,
now I know we talked about the
pandemic already and about the
hurt that it put on people, uh,
especially our small business owners, um,
from restaurants to, uh,
to school teachers, uh,
the whole nine yards,
everyone was affected. Um,
one of the things you've
been working on, um,
has been economic growth. And,
and I believe you started the Economic
Growth Caucus because we came out of this
pandemic and we were in a
lot of trouble. And, uh,
and the Commonwealth's
gonna have to find ways, uh,
to grow the economy as we move forward.
So why don't we talk a little bit
about that economic growth caucus?
Yeah, I appreciate the
opportunity. Um, you know, again,
coming with a business background
and really being outta my element,
and to some extent, I still kind
of am up in Harrisburg. You know,
I tell people I'm never gonna be a great
legislator in the traditional sense of
getting, uh, you know, a lot of bills
passed and up on the wall. I think, um,
hopefully I do a little bit of that. Um,
and yeah, and there's a skill set, um,
that some people have. You know, I'm, I'm
not gonna be the world's greatest, uh,
debater on the floor. You know, we've
got some brilliant guys up there,
as you know, like Paul
Shemel and Tim Bonner,
a lot of 'em with legal backgrounds
that are just really, uh,
remarkable what I would call
traditional kind of lawmakers. Um,
but my role was to kind of bring the
business community into grassroots to bear
and make sure their voices are heard
and that they can impact policy.
And to that end, uh, when I first
got to Harrisburg, I met a, uh,
a gentleman named Mike Toba, who
was now retired. Um, and, uh,
obviously you and I served with him,
Matt, from up in the school Kill County.
Um, and Mike was a business
guy. And I said, you know,
how many do we have many folks up here
with business backgrounds? And it,
it wasn't a very big number, <laugh>, you
get a lot of political science majors,
a lot of attorneys, and so forth,
and, and there's a role for everybody,
don't get me wrong. But, uh, so what
we did is you're, you're correct. I,
so I ended up co-founding about
almost four years ago now, um,
the economic growth, uh, caucus. And, um,
and then I've chaired that ever since.
So there's about 25 members, uh, you,
you said early on in, in
the, in your monologue there,
that we want people that have
signed the front of a paycheck,
not just the back of a paycheck. And
you and I have both done that. Um,
so these are folks that either owned
or led a business or held a a senior
management position in a,
in a corporation. And we
really focus on four areas.
Um, probably the least
controversial is workforce. Um,
we're sending way too
many kids to college,
about 45% of whom will have
no degree at all in six years.
And then there's another chunk,
of course, that will have, uh,
degrees they never use.
So a lot of these kids will have
nothing but wasted time and debt, uh,
to show for the experience.
Um, in the meantime, um,
and I don't know the statistics
in, in your neck of the woods mat,
but in York County, 20% of
our jobs are manufacturing.
That's double the state average.
So we are in desperate need of machinists
and electricians and carpenters,
<laugh> and plumbers and so forth.
Uh, in the meantime, we're, we're,
we're wasting taxpayer dollars to send
a lot of students to college that would
be better off in trade or vocational
schools. Uh, and oh, by the way,
we're sending them there in many cases
to be indoctrinated in socialism,
which is the enemy of America and
capitalism, in my opinion. Um, we look at,
uh, energy policy, uh, which you're
more astute on than I am being from, uh,
you're out in, uh, in the
western part of the state.
We should be an energy powerhouse,
and we're continuing to shoot
ourselves in the foot, uh, with,
like most recently, the, uh,
wolf trying to get us into the,
the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative.
Um, we look at, uh, tax policy,
we finally got a slight reduction
in the corporate net income tax. Uh,
but we're way too high on corporate
net income tax companies are not even
very few companies even consider, uh, in,
in major investments here in
Pennsylvania. Um, and again,
we should be an economic powerhouse
from a supply chain perspective, uh,
perfectly positioned geographically.
Uh, we might have a lot of potholes,
but we have on the bottom line is we have
great infrastructure in the sense that
we have a lot of roads. Uh, we are
central to a lot of the US population,
um, close to ports and so forth.
Uh, and then lastly is regulatory,
which is even really worse, uh,
for our business climate than taxes
because we are so difficult to do business
with. The Department of Environmental
Protection is out of control. Uh,
permits that take three or four months
in in many states will take a year and a
half or two years here in Pennsylvania.
So we've been championing legislation.
I think we could have done a
lot more for small business, um,
on the heels of the pandemic. Um,
there was probably no greater time, uh,
when people were more sympathetic
to the calls of small business.
We did get a couple things done. I
don't wanna put your listeners to sleep,
but we got, uh, accelerated
depreciation for capital investment.
We got something called
like Kind Exchange.
Some things that I say aren't real sexy,
but would go a long way
in helping our businesses.
We're championing something called
deemed to proof permitting, uh,
which would accelerate the
permitting process. Uh,
trying to keep d e p out of these real
small projects, uh, say, Hey, look,
you shouldn't be involved in anything
that's, uh, less than five acres.
It's currently one acre. Um,
so there's some little things that
aren't gonna be headline grabbers,
but would go a long way in helping our
businesses, and of course, continuing to,
to chip away at, uh, at the
crazy tax burden we have here.
Now, you know, Mike, people may look
at us, uh, and, you know, I try to be,
um, objective here on this
program now that I, uh,
have retired from the house,
but, you know, there's,
there's no hiding the fact that I was a
conservative Republican member while I
was there, and, uh, continue to espouse
those beliefs, uh, in my personal life,
et cetera. So I think sometimes people
would paint people like you and I with,
uh, with a broad brush and say, you know,
this is what a conservative
Republican looks like. Okay,
what are the guys that get the awards
at cpac? And things like that. Um,
but that being said, I I,
I think there are some things that may
shock some individuals. And, you know,
you talked a little bit about, um,
kids that need training for the, the
workforce that we have available.
Um, and about, uh, the
trades. You know, I,
I'm a big supporter of, uh, um, excuse me,
of private sector unions.
Um, public sector unions are,
are a different situation.
But, you know, I think if,
if my sons wanted to go
become an electrician and
become an apprentice and go
through that, uh, system rather
than going to a traditional college,
I wouldn't be worried or or
offended by that. And, uh,
and I wanted to get kind of your take.
Uh, what, what are your opinions on, uh,
the training that unions offer?
Yeah, I think the, uh,
you know, there's a huge,
there's sort of like three buckets, right?
And you, you touched on two of them.
So you've got the public sector unions,
which is basically the teachers
unions and the state employees. Um,
and I'll tell you right up front, I
think the teachers unions, not teachers,
the teachers unions are the greatest
source of evil in our state.
<laugh> for a lot of reasons. That's,
that's how passionate I am about that. Um,
then you have your, and we'll
circle back to that, uh,
and they're absolutely killing us,
um, with, um, I think on curriculum.
They're way outside their
lane. They got, they've got,
they've gotten so much money and have
had so much power go to their head that
they've, they've become what
they set out to fault, you know,
to fight years ago, you would say, you
know, well, unions were there to, for,
to fight these corrupt,
greedy, big businesses. Well,
the teacher's union has become
exactly that. Um, and, uh,
I think the, um, and,
and the burden that it's
putting on taxpayers with
the pension system and so on
and so forth, then you've
got what, I guess, you know,
what I would call your traditional,
uh, you know, like a shop union. So I,
for example, was I grew up in a UAW
household. My dad was a UAW member,
a Caterpillar machine operator here in
York when they still had manufacturing
here. Uh, and then you got the
trade unions. And as you know,
as you kind of go across that
spectrum, the general membership,
um, has trended more and more
Republicans. So we, we've,
I would venture to guess, you may know
better than I do, Matt, but I would,
I would venture probably well over half
the trade union members in the state
probably tend to tend
to vote Republican. Um,
and even a lot of your traditional, uh,
like uaw, teamster types, my dad was,
was just that he was a, uh,
a democrat that became a
Republican thanks to Ronald Reagan,
and really voted on guns and
abortion more so than he did on, uh,
traditional union issues. But the,
I think the trade union
model is fantastic. If you
look at what they do, uh,
the worker training, uh, the emphasis on
safety, um, they're fighting, you know,
they, for, for member benefits
and so forth, and quality of life,
they self-fund a lot of that thing,
those things. And so I think it's a,
a great model. I think we as Republicans
have tried to continue, you know,
as Reagan said, it's
a, it's a big tent, uh,
and we've continued to try to
strengthen our relationship,
particularly with the trades.
Um, the main frustration,
uh, that we've, that I, that
I at least have had, um,
is they continue to go to bat for
the public sector unions, <laugh>.
And we see the police and the
firefighters doing the same thing.
And to some extent, I get
it, but to the other extent,
it's hard for us to work with them if
they won't work with us a little bit and
find some common ground. So, as you
know, we have a lot of bills, um,
that focus just on
public sector issues. Uh,
but the trades and others will
invariably come to bat for them,
and they carry a lot of, a lot of weight.
So I wish we could find a little
bit of middle ground there, uh,
a little easier said
than done. Um, but yeah,
we have to do everything we can to
champion, uh, workforce development, um,
like we've talked about, you
know, um, everything from, uh,
pipe fitters to welders and electricians
and plumbers and carpenters, and,
um, we need to do a
better job as a party, um,
emphasizing those, those, uh, skills and,
and doing what we can to collaborate
in particular, uh, with the trades.
And, uh, it's obviously
critically important out west, uh,
where energy is such a big, uh, a big
sector for you guys. And, um, so I,
I think we've made progress. Um, I,
I wish they could be a little more
collaborative, um, and not, uh,
defending what I think are really some
common sense reforms on the public sector
side. Uh, but we'll keep
plugging away on that.
You know, and,
and you already touched a little bit
on the dep and regulation that's there.
You know,
some of these regulations are shutting
down the quote unquote shovel ready
projects that are, uh, are out there
and, and are supposed to exist,
um, because permitting, uh,
is, is just so difficult.
I know I see that in the gas
and oil industry here, uh, in,
in the foothills of Appalachia here in
Fayette County and in Somerset County.
Um, you know, their projects
are being held up and, uh,
and so sometimes we have to fight
for those, those trade jobs.
No, and that's, if you don't mind just a
second on that, that's really a killer.
Um, arguably even a bigger issue than,
than some of our unfriendly tax policies.
Cause having consulted, you know,
I talked at the onset there that I,
I did a lot of consulting for
large and very large companies. Um,
they drag their feet like everybody
else. And, you know, if they,
if if they can go to Ohio or Maryland
or, um, West Virginia or whatnot,
um, and, and get a pro, you know,
and get a project up and running
in three or four months, they're,
they're not gonna mess around
with Pennsylvania taking
a year and a half. And,
uh, DEP is really out of control.
They out of focus on their
core competencies, you know,
safe drinking water and things like that.
They've got their hands in
way too many pies. And I,
I don't know how you see it, but it
looks to me like they're in the business.
Their charter should be to
make sure that projects are
approved quickly, efficiently,
and, you know, and that they're,
they're adhering to safety standards.
I think they've really gotten to where
they're activists and they're in the
business of killing, good,
killing projects that they
don't happen to like, uh,
and that's just, uh, it has huge
consequences on our economy. Um,
and that's one reason that, you
know, a lot of young people, uh,
are leaving the state. So it's a big deal.
Well, Mike, I gotta get another break in
here real quick. And when we come back,
we're gonna talk about one of
those other issues where, uh,
you've been able to cross the aisle and,
and kind of have conversations with,
uh, with people outside of the party.
May not be the traditional
Republican viewpoint, um, but, uh,
we'll get to that as soon as we get
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You're listening to commonalities
on W WBS Radio five 90 am 1 0 1
0.1 fm,
and any place you download
your favorite podcasts,
you can also tune in for, uh,
the video version on Facebook. Uh,
just search for Matthew Dowing,
find My Public profile, and, uh,
you'll be able to watch
Rebroadcasts of, uh,
commonalities every Tuesday and
Thursday. I'm here with, uh,
my former co colleague, representative
Mike Jones of South Central York County.
And, uh, we've been talking
a little bit about, uh,
how he's a conservative Republican,
but doesn't always fit, uh,
that mold or how there are, uh, uh,
some differences that you're not just
able to paint a politician with a broad
brush. Uh, so one of the items
that I know you worked on Mike, uh,
in the Pennsylvania House over the past
couple years has been criminal justice
reform. And that's not
always a, uh, you know,
a cornerstone of, uh, the Republican
caucus at the federal level.
We're at the state level. Um, but
something I know you feel strongly about,
uh, and maybe have had the opportunity
to reach across the aisle and have
conversations with, uh, with
our democratic brethren, uh,
about criminal justice reform. So why
don't you tell us a little bit about, uh,
the work you've done in that field?
Yeah, I appreciate you giving me
the opportunity, Matt. Um, yeah,
it was certainly when I, when
I first ran for office, uh,
I guess almost five years ago now, um,
criminal justice reform wasn't even
on my radar. I'm a pretty traditional,
tough on crime, kind of
conservative Republican. And, uh,
when I got, uh, very early in
my tenure, I think it was, uh,
February of 19, I'd only been in
office a little over a month, um,
I actually accepted an invitation
from the Democratic, um,
black Caucus to attend an
event at a woman's prison.
We have two women state
penitentiaries in Pennsylvania.
One of them is in Mune outside of
Williamsport, and it was a, uh,
I think it was over the Martin Luther
King holiday as part of Black History
Month. In any event, there
were two Republicans,
Cheryl Delozier from Cumberland
County, who's also been a,
a champion of criminal justice reform,
and myself and about eight Democrats. Um,
and that ended up setting me on
what has now been a nearly four year
journey, uh, championing a
couple of issues that, as I said,
were never even really on my radar screen.
And one of those is dignity
for incarcerated women. Uh,
which for the first time ever we got out
of the house committee, I appreciate,
uh, our, our colleague Rob Kaufman,
the charman of judiciary
running a bill that, uh, wasn't,
one isn't on his top 10 list,
but he was willing to collaborate and
get it outta committee, uh, for me.
And then we had it pass
the entire house floor. Um,
so our hope is that in
next session, we'll,
we'll get it all the way to the
governor's desk, but that basically,
in a nutshell recognizes that, uh,
prisons weren't really created with
women in mind. Women obviously,
particularly pregnant women, have some
unique needs. And, uh, it basically said,
I tell people, look as a,
uh, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a,
I'm a businessman and American and a
Christian, and as a businessman, um,
the, a lot of this is
just bad business. We,
we wanna do all we can to end the cycle
of crime, uh, end that revolving door.
We want people to get out of
prison and get into the workforce,
not come right back to jail. Um, and so,
but to do that, we gotta meet people
in the middle a little bit. And, uh,
so part of this is, is, um,
recognizing that while women are there,
there's still our mothers and sisters
and daughters, uh, and neighbors,
and they need to be
treated with dignity. Um,
it's also a bit of a pro-life aspect to
it to make sure that we minimize trauma
on unborn and try to
minimize the impact on, uh,
minor children that some of
these women still have at home.
And then very quickly I say,
you know, look, as an American,
it's the land of opportunity
and second chances,
none of us want to be judged on our
worst day. I certainly don't want to. Um,
and lastly, as a Christian, you know,
we are all in need of redemption,
and I may, you know, not have done
anything to land myself in jail,
but I'll be the first one to raise
my hand and say that, you know,
I need forgiveness and
redemption. So this is, um,
nothing about being soft on crime, it's
just trying to treat women with dignity.
Uh, in many cases, these women,
uh, are where they are because of,
and I'm not justifying their
behavior, but a lot of them,
there's a disproportionately more
instances where women have found themself
incarcerated because of associating,
quite frankly, with a bad man. Uh,
one of the other ones I really
wanna look at this coming session,
it could be one of the, one
of the few, um, upsides, uh,
to the Democrats having control of the
house, um, is I'd like to look at, uh,
geriatric parole where we say
that, um, certain, uh, criminals,
if they, uh,
incarcerated individuals when they've
reached a certain age and they've served
a, a certain number of
years, so maybe it's,
they've reached the age of 60 and they've
served 30 years of a life sentence,
uh, that they would at least be
eligible, uh, for parole. Uh,
a lot of these folks long
since aged out of crime,
it's costing us a ton of money,
and many of them would be good,
great mentors back in society. Not
only holding down jobs, but trying,
uh, to help direct, uh, younger
men and women, you know,
away from a life of crime. Um,
it's a common sense legislation
that I'd like to try to see us,
um, go forward. There's
a lot of exceptions.
We're not gonna help people that hurt
kids, for example, or anything like that.
Um, but there are a lot of people that
made bad decisions when they were,
you know, teenagers or, uh,
or young men or women, uh,
that have probably earned at
least consideration. Not a pardon,
but consideration for parole. So
those are two things in particular, I,
I made about eight or 10
trips to Philadelphia, um,
usually speaking to predominantly
black audiences. So, uh, you can, uh,
you can imagine they don't
expect to see some, uh,
white business guy from the suburbs who
was twice ranked the most conservative
in the state down in Philly, talking
about criminal justice reform. So, um,
that's one of the great things about
your show. You know, there's, uh, it's,
it's not as black and white, uh, as
people think it is in the political world.
There's, there's a lot of room for,
uh, negotiation and common ground,
and you can build
friendships across the aisle.
Well, and I think whenever we're talking
about criminal justice reform, uh,
luckily you're not the only Republican
that is on board. You know, what,
we're not, uh, we're not saying open
up the doors and, and let everyone out.
Um, you know, quite frankly,
I didn't agree with, uh,
with some of the prisoners that were
released during the pandemic, um,
because of overcrowding in our
state, penitentiaries, et cetera. Um,
but I do think there's room
for criminal justice reform,
and even the Americans for
Prosperity, which sometimes, uh,
some of their members make me look,
uh, a little bit as a leftist, uh,
you know, in comparison.
But the Americans for Prosperity
have taken the opinion,
and I've talked to them,
um, that, uh, you know,
it's costing us money to, to
keep these people in prison,
and they're unable to be
productive members of society.
So if they're not a harm to
themselves or others, um,
why not look at getting them, uh,
back into the community where
they can do some good and, uh,
and generate some income of their
own and, and maybe lead a, uh,
a productive life. Um, not to mention,
I think some of these reforms will
actually not only help us, uh,
with long term, with people
that have long sentences,
but people with shorter sentences that,
uh, where we see recidivism being, uh,
higher than maybe it should be.
Yeah, you're, you're exactly right.
I think, um, again, um, I, I,
I was actually just, uh,
did a prison visit, um,
in Chester County a few months back
and met some of these lifers. Um,
I think if people, and again,
I'm, I'm a tough one crime guy,
I I okay with the death penalty when
it's warranted and things like that. So,
but you meet some of these individuals
and you're like, as I said earlier, this,
this is just bad business
in defies logic. Um,
and, and to your point, you
make a good point too, um,
on some of the shorter sentences.
Another area we have to look
at is some of these things
become almost self-fulfilling prophecies.
And what I'm alluding to is the,
the fines that we're burdening
people with in particular.
And a lot of times that's coupled
with taking their driver's license.
So you're putting people back on the
street saying, you gotta pay back. Now,
I'm not talking about restitution. If
you did damage that needs to be repaid.
Um,
but when you've got municipalities
in the state piling on with
excessive fines,
while at the same time dramatically
curtailing the individual's ability
to make a living,
it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
that they're gonna go back into,
into that criminal element if you
follow. And, and again, nothing's,
there's a lot of nuance <laugh>
and a lot of gray area here,
but we're gonna have to get a lot smarter,
especially when these people are
desperately needed in the workforce. Um,
and there's some bad actors. We had a
very conservative, uh, judge here, um,
who since retired Judge
Tra Billcock in York,
who was kind of a pioneer in
the area of drug courts and, uh,
veterans courts and so forth.
Uh, he himself was a veteran,
and he would tell you that I was actually
shocked. He said it's probably 80%,
uh, at least 75, maybe 80% of the
people that come before him, really,
that he had to send to jail really
should not have been going there. Uh,
they had other issues.
We see a lot of people with mental health
issues in particular that, you know,
that we're housing in the jails.
And, um, you know, there's 20,
25% that are bad actors that we need to
lock up and probably never see the light
a day. Um, but there's another
big chunk of the population,
um, where we've really gotta rethink what
we're doing here because it's, it's a,
it's a huge cost and in many
cases, we're actually, uh,
increasing, not decreasing, um,
the recidivism to your point.
Sure. Hey, Mike, we gotta get,
uh, one quick break in and, uh,
we'll come back and close
out the show. Today.
You're listening to
commonalities on WBS Radio.
Are you enjoying the program?
You're listening to support commonalities
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You're listening to commonalities
on WBS five 90 am 1 0 1
0.1 fm, and any place you
download your favorite podcasts.
Uh, and if you know of a friend or
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we'd ask you to, uh,
remind them to give us a
[email protected]
or, uh, apple Podcast,
Spotify and Google Podcasts,
every place you download your your
favorite radio programs. I'm Matt Dowling.
Today my guest is, uh, representative
Mike Jones of South Central York County.
And Mike, we have just
about, uh, two minutes left.
Any closing thoughts for us here today?
Yeah, well, first of all, again, I want
to congratulate you on your show. Um,
I have a tremendous amount
of respect for you, uh,
enjoyed our time together
in the legislature. And, um,
I really like the format.
I think just with limited time
and sort of in the spirit,
I think of what you're trying to
accomplish with your show. Um,
I like to say that, you know,
we don't get better by just
surrounding ourselves with people, um,
who tell us what we want to hear.
So it's always good, you know,
you're going to, I'm sure many of our
core beliefs we're gonna have with us,
you know, till the day we die. Um, but
I have found tremendous benefit in,
in, uh, while I can be
passionate and opinionated,
I don't need to be arrogant about it.
And I can be humble and
listen to other opinions,
whether it's across the aisle or from
within my own party. And, you know,
always be open to the possibility
that, hey, maybe I'm, uh, you know,
maybe I'm wrong, or maybe somebody's
got a better idea. Um, and lastly,
in that regard, one thing I
would like to see in Harrisburg,
a lot of times compromise is just
bipartisan just means easy stuff,
or it means watered down. And I think
we can do a lot more horse training.
And a great example is like small
business legislation that it'd be really
substantive that a lot of Democrats could
either support or at least live with
in exchange for something like criminal
justice reform that they're passionate
about. We might not be as passionate,
but it's good policy and
we could live with it.
And that's something I would
love to see going forward,
is a little more horse trading on
substantive issues. Uh, you know,
rather than just water
down feel good, bipartisan.
Cause it's not that we don't agree,
it's that we've lost the art of debate,
you know, healthy, friendly debate.
So that's kind of my closing
thought for you there. And again,
congratulations and I
appreciate you having me.
Well, thank you so, uh, so much
for being with us here, Mike. Uh,
it is Thanksgiving week and, uh, you know,
I find myself very thankful for the
time that I had in the legislature,
not just to do the work
of the people, but, uh,
to meet people like yourself and, and to
meet people on both sides of the aisle,
uh, who are just great human beings,
even if we don't agree on every issue.
I think many politicians just wanna leave
their communities a little bit better
than they found them.
My guest today was, uh,
represented Mike Jones from
York County, Mike, so much, uh,
thank you so much for being with us,
and, uh, have a great thanksgiving.
Thank you, Matt. You do the same. Hope
you and your family are doing well.
This has been commonalities,
a show where guests find common
ground through uncommon conversations.
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